The idea of “cancel culture” often comes up during conversations about sexual assault. Should predators–especially high-profile predators–be “canceled” and prohibited from pursuing their careers? Kendra Sheets and Rich Gill, hosts of the enough! podcast join Karen Barth Menzies and Shawn Vincent to talk about whether there is a path forward for abusers who take responsibility for their actions, acknowledge the harm they have caused, and demonstrate that they have learned from their mistakes and adjusted their behavior.

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Shawn Vincent:

Thank you for joining the podcast. My name is Shawn Vincent. I am the producer and the moderator of Unsilenced Survivors. I'm honored to work with attorney Karen Barth Menzies. She's the creator of Unsilenced Survivors. She created this podcast to be a safe place for survivors, advocates, and allies to find a constructive way to talk about sexual assault and abuse. We're joined today by Kendra Sheets and Rich Gill. They founded an excellent podcast called enough! that was designed to shed light on sexual abuse, harassment, and assault in the music industry. Kendra tells us that when she became aware of the problem of sexual assault in the music industry, a lot of people were telling her that “Somebody needs to do something about it.” Her podcast was her solution for that. Some of those same people though, are still supporting problematic artists, and that's where we start our conversation today.

Kendra Sheets:

We've talked a lot about cancel culture. Is it real? Where's it going? No one's going anywhere. They're still around. It doesn't really exist. But I think that something that I think is very important is that people need to … when we're talking about abuse in regards to artists, musicians, actual artists like drawing, painting, et cetera, anything where someone is creating a product that is absorbed or offered to the public, we need to be educated consumers in what we're doing. There are plenty of artists out there who don't assault people. Why would you openly choose to continue to spend money to buy concert tickets or merch or vinyl records or whatever for someone who is going around abusing people? And it's very easy for a number of people to not listen to the podcast or to not engage in these conversations because they don't want to find out that their singer or their very favorite band turned out to be a lifelong rapist.

And then you have to figure out what to do with that, and that puts more responsibility on you. And then you have to act as an adult. Either you continue to go through life knowing that you're supporting a person or people who are doing something like this, and you're going to have that little birdie at the back of your head saying these things consistently, because we all know, or you're going to have to figure out how to disengage from something. That music, art, all of it means so much to so many people in so many different ways, and it touches you so very deeply. And the song about this guy's breakup was pretty much about my divorce or whatever the situation was. I've never been divorced, but you know how it goes …

Shawn Vincent:

Right? But if you relate to a piece of art …

Kendra Sheets:

Exactly, and you feel it so deeply, and I think that's why it's so tricky in situations like what Rich and I talk about on the podcast, because music is so very personal. It's written for one person, but it's written for us all, and we connect with it in such a deep way. You don't want to lose that connection by finding out the person who wrote it is actually a human and they've made a giant mistake, but it's all kind of part of the wave. If we find out, then we can hold 'em accountable. If they're held accountable, then they can go through the actions to try and make right their behavior. Maybe not what they did before, but maybe moving forward to make sure they don't do these things again. Maybe they weren't educated, maybe they didn't know that what they were doing in a case of not quite rape, but maybe a sexual assault, maybe they were drunk.

Not that these are excuses, but these are excuses people use. And once you hold them accountable and you draw that line, they can't keep going back to the I was drunk, excuse anymore. They've been held accountable. They need to move forward and we need to grow as a culture. And at the point where we're at right now with the people pushing back on all of us here, we're not able to grow. The people who are fighting back with us are the ones who, like Karen had mentioned, are scared of change, who are scared of the growth and don't want to move forward in that way because it's going to change the landscape of how we function as a society.

Shawn Vincent:

So I want to explore this if you don't mind, and Karen, if I tread on anything, and I need to edit this out, you let me know. But I know I talked to you and you were with a survivor when her case was settled, and then she told you that, “Oh, good, now I can listen to that artist again.” Am I right about that?

Karen Barth Menzies:

That did happen. And I liked what you were saying, Kendra too, is because you're right … rape is a different situation. But if there are mistakes made along the way, and really truly, we all know this, we talk to survivors enough to know that what the survivors really want is recognition that what they did caused harm, and they want accountability for that so that it won't happen to the next person. And in this situation, the individual took what the survivor felt like was fair accountability, and it allowed her to be able to close that door, find a little bit of closure, and move on to the healthier parts of memories she had when she was younger. The music is a huge part of that stuff that she wants to hold onto and can now without having it tainted in the way it had been for so many years without there being any kind of accountability. So I think we need to leave room for, I mean, there's some just full on predators that they're just

Shawn Vincent:

Irredeemable.

Karen Barth Menzies:

Yeah, they're serial, they're just habitual. But then there are others that … it's like a growing society. I like what Rich said, too. You need to listen to this because, on some level, we've all experienced this – I've certainly experienced it in my own industry – inappropriate behavior and unawareness that was inappropriate and how that might've made somebody else feel. And the more we talk about that, then those people who aren't evil to their core, but they're being ignorant or self-absorbed or whatever, might take some self-awareness and say, you know what? I can be better. I certainly feel that way about myself trying to understand a better understanding about what's going on with others who I might not have the same experiences they have. How do I understand from their point as much as I can, it's listening to them and improving and doing a better job myself. So I always want to leave room for that. And then the survivors want that too, at least in my experience.

Kendra Sheets (07:49):

Well, one thing I think we need to be cognizant of is that we are living in a culture right now with limited to no mental health care for the majority of the population. And as Rich had mentioned, I mean, we all know someone who's been a victim of sexual abuse or assault, and it happens in youth many times, not just with women, with men as well. They carry these things on. It is human nature to basically hurt people in the same way that you've been hurt. Whether you're cognizant of it or not, it becomes part of your actual brain wiring. So you're going to enact some of these same behaviors down the line. It's not every single person, but it's very, I mean, it's in many of the cases, and if we're not able to provide proper mental health care for the people who live within our society, they're not going to be able to overcome some of these traumas unless they're offered services.

We have to be able to let them take accountability and then see what we can do to assist them to get over these things. Because some of these, I think you had said it was, oh, no, you said it perfectly. It was basically a “cultural faux pas, right?” They weren't quite sure they made a mistake. They made a grave mistake. They didn't know. They didn't realize it as they were going through it, but in hindsight, they see that there was a mistake made and that they should change their actions. They need some sort of service to help them change their actions. And if we're not providing that in some way, they're going to probably be repeat offenders in these ways. So we have to not only let them not only listen to the survivors, not only hold the people accountable, but offer services to make the culture better as a whole or else we're not going to get there. We're going to be fragmented the entire time.

Rich Gill:

I just want to add, despite what a lot of our detractors want to believe about us, we're not purveyors of cancel culture for one thing …

Kendra Sheets :

You'll never convince …

Rich Gill:

Yeah. For one thing, cancel culture isn't actually a thing. But also we are not saying that put these people on an island, throw them away, get them out of society forever. That's not what we're about. I mean, for me personally, I can never listen to another Bill Cosby record just because he was a monster for however many years. But when it comes to a lot of these other people, I would love for these artists who have done terrible things to own that own the … I am not even going to say mistakes that they made, because in some cases it was like repeat …

Shawn Vincent:

Actual crimes.

Rich Gill:

But just own up to that, take responsibility, accept whatever consequence it is, whether it's monetary or criminal, or just having to not have a career in music because now victims are not accessible to you. I would love for that to happen so that these people can come back and be constructive members of society.

Shawn Vincent:

So it's not cancel culture, it's accountability.

Rich Gill:

Accountability culture. Exactly. Because …

Kendra Sheets:

With cancel culture, you just cast them out. They go out. They're no longer part of your orbit or anyone. We don't know where they are. There's no tabs on them anymore, and they're more than likely to offend in the exact same way in someone else's genre or group.

Shawn Vincent:

And the truth is, it'd be an important part of the conversation if they were allowed to be part of the conversation if they decided they wanted to take accountability. It's so funny you mentioned The Cosby Show, Rich. I was just talking with my son last night who's a junior in high school now. We actually said, “I'm glad I saw The Cosby Show before we knew about Bill because we can't watch it now. And Karen, I was really glad to hear the client absolve the artist because I listened to them today, and I felt okay about it because I felt if the client–if the survivor said it was okay and she listened to it again, then I said, “All right, I can listen to the music.” But no, it's so funny though. I don't hear the song … for a number of artists, frankly .. now without stopping and thinking about the context of it. And I think too, if there might be, what I'm looking for, Kendra, is I'm just desperately grubbing to be able to listen to some music that I love still and not abandon it forever because of what I know about the artist, but there's sort of an act contrition that has to … And I won't spend any more money than the Spotify royalties, and maybe I'll wait for them to be dead so that their …

Kendra Sheets:

Legacy, then it goes into their fund or whatever.

Shawn Vincent:

I won't go to their show and I'm not wearing the T-shirt. It's, it's a difficult thing because there's separation of the art and artists, but we also, and there's also when you're clearly supporting what they're doing economically and another thing where you're acknowledging the role that they maybe had in your adolescence …

Kendra Sheets:

Very much.

Shawn Vincent:

So in the world that you've built, it's a complicated thing that you have to deal with.

Karen Barth Menzies:

It's up to, I mean, honestly, I know and lawyers are to blame, I guess to some degree too, but I'm trying to think as we're talking of any artist out there who has been called out for inappropriate behavior and has just stepped up and said, damn, I was stupid. I was an idiot. I was self-absorbed in my world of fame, and I really wish I didn't do that because I see now that it caused harm, and if that happened, we can't force people to do that, right? It's on them to do it, but they can do it. We're not trying to cancel anybody on that, but it's on you if you want to say, okay, I'm going to acknowledge what I did and what I did caused harm and I really regret it. Okay, great.

Kendra Sheets:

Rich and I talked about, but it is up to you to do it … exactly where we're like, we're not trying to, again, make a joke or make light of the situation by any means, but a lot of these things would become way less culturally severe if they just owned up to what they did, and instead of doing what we like to call the Facebook Mad Libs, where it's like they plug and play certain words into the same PR written legalese quote, that's all about how I don't remember doing any of these things, however, I was told that I did, and perhaps if I did, then maybe these things happened, and also it's just a bunch of BS. Just say, look, like you had mentioned Karen, I've never heard anyone say anything about it was the fame of it all. Maybe because dealing with a little bit lower tier, less fame, we're looking at four to 10,000 followers on Facebook, maybe around the people that we kind of circle around, but it's usually like, oh, I was just really drunk. I had a whole time, oh, I was doing a lot of drugs then. I don't really remember what I was doing. It comes off more as an excuse, I think, in that way than at least in the kind of mad libs that we've seen. It's always some sort of excuse, I'm not going to do it again. There's usually not any sort of commentary about how they're going to learn not to do it again. It's just going to be like, “I'm good. Don't worry about me. Also, she's probably lying.”

Karen Barth Menzies:

Right? And if you would just actually listen to the survivor, what the survivor wants is that accountability of recognition that you messed up and you realize it caused harm, and that's what survivors want. They don't care about the 15 minutes of fame. The last thing they want is notoriety or attention coming forward, and that's easy to give. Just acknowledge you screwed up.

Kendra Sheets:

I mean, “15 minutes of fame.” Name five of the women besides Stormy Daniels who have accused Donald Trump … go, we can't. There is no fame. These are not household names. They're not becoming multimillionaires. I mean, it's not really like that. It's, they're looking for something very specific, very for themselves for the healing process. It's not, “Oh, I can't wait to get a million bucks. That'll fix all my problems.” It's not going to continue to live with that. They're looking for exactly like you said, just something to kind of put back the pieces, some accountability, someone to actually nod at them and say, “Yeah, that did happen to you. Your reality was real, and it's okay that you had that, and we're going to be here to assist in some way.” Or this person also agrees that this happened and they were in the wrong. It's so few and far between that they get any of that though,

Karen Barth Menzies:

Oh, yeah, I did this to you. This wasn't you.

Rich Gill:

Right?

Karen Barth Menzies:

Imagine what that would mean to a survivor,

Rich Gill:

How powerful that would be to just hear that from, yeah, that'd be great. I would love to see someone …

Kendra Sheets:

It would turn off at least 50 of the thousand switches of the gaslighting that they're going to deal with for the rest of their life in every situation,

Karen Barth Menzies:

And everybody in this society hears it too and is like, you know what? Okay,

Shawn Vincent:

So you admit when you're wrong. That sounds crazy.

Karen Barth Menzies:

Admit you made a mistake!

Rich Gill:

In this economy? In this day and age? Come on!

Shawn Vincent:

All right, everybody, that's our podcast for today. I do appreciate you listening through to the end. We recorded this podcast with Rich and Kendra long before the presidential election. They've just released a podcast on enough!, their episode number 70, where they talk about their feelings about a man who has been accused of sexual assault by multiple accusers, who's even been found liable in a sexual assault case in the civil court system, now becoming president of the United States. We're going to explore that issue in more detail as our podcast grows. We'll be back soon with more conversations. I want to thank you again for listening. Just being an active listener and being willing to participate in this conversation is some of the work that needs to be done towards changing the culture that allows for sexual assault to be so pervasive. Thank you for being part of the solution. We'll see you next time.

Rich and Kendra founded their “enough!” podcast to provide a platform for survivors to speak out and to shed light on the problem of sexual assault in the music industry. Kendra asked Rich to be her podcast partner, in part, because he was such a good listener. The key to being an ally for assault survivors, Rich says, is listening compassionately without judgment and without trying to offer solutions. Listening, Kendra says, sometimes means being willing and able to absorb “an emotional, passionate trauma dump.”

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Shawn (01:00):

Hey everybody. Thank you for joining the podcast. My name is Shawn Vincent. I'm the moderator of Unsilenced Survivors. I'm lucky to work with attorney Karen Barth Menzies. She's the founder of Unsilenced Survivors. Today, our guests are Rich and Kendra. They're the founders of the “enough!” podcast that sheds light on sexual assault in the music industry. They are a platform for survivors to speak out. We were on their show not long ago. We're lucky to have them as our guests today. One of the things that we're going to talk about is the importance of listening as the first step in advocacy. It is important when survivors find the courage to speak out, that they have an ally they can talk to, who will listen without reaction and without judgment. Here's our conversation with Rich and Kendra.

Karen (01:58):

We've been trying to figure out some ways that we can, as you both know, one of the reasons … one of the motivations of our firm is to give a voice to survivors. And because it's so important not only for the survivor who's speaking up, but also other survivors to hear it. So how do you do that? How do you do that in the context of “litigation isn't going to be enough.” You need to do more, and then learning about you and how you've done it and how you've gone forward and listening to your work, it's right there. I mean, allowing survivors to come forward anonymously if they want to. And the result of that and the format that you use, the conversation that you have with them, that we've heard too and listened. First of all, I love how current everything is. It's almost like … it's not a news podcast … but just so relevant. It feels so relevant. And then you have voices of other people speaking on things that feel relevant to everybody at the same time, and you get these different perspectives, and it's just a really great, rich way to talk about and experience and hear about what others have experienced.

Shawn (03:22):

Rich, I saw you respond to the “current news” comment that Karen made. What was your thought there?

Rich (03:30):

Well, we do try to keep up to date on what is happening, obviously in the world, not just when it comes to societal issues and stuff, but also Kendra and I have this joke that our group chat is a lot of sharing articles about, “Oh, who has been … had charges filed for abuse or assault?” Which celebrity had a bunch of people come out in a New York Times article or a Rolling Stone article or a Spin article? So we're always just something out there in that regard, and we just kind of always try to stay on top of it and put things out in a way where people who might not necessarily have the time or energy, because as we all know, this is a lot when you're dealing with sexual abuse and assault. We can put things out in a way that people can just ingest it at their leisure, or it's not going to be an hour-long thing. It's like, “Hey, here's 15 minutes on this person or this event,” and just sort of as a way to make it a little more easily digestible, I guess.

Shawn (05:02):

Well, and Kendra, I think there's so much news out there and there's so many sources. There's a real need for trusted curators, and I think that you guys have become trusted curators to give a broader perspective on the sexual assault-related stories that are in the news.

Kendra (05:25):

That's very kind of you. I know six people in our reviews that are negative comments that feel otherwise, but other than that, thank you. Yeah, I mean, I think that one of the things that has become so interesting is that when Rich and I started this back in, what was it … 2021, now … I've been thinking about it and coming to the conclusion that I had to do something like this since 2019, but as we've rolled through the last years, we I think have put a lot of trust in each other and it's grown, and a lot of, as we've journeyed through all of this, our points of view on things has not only expanded, but also somewhat changed. Obviously, our ideas are still the same. Our goal, our message, all of that, still the same, but it's become so much more rich and full as we've really looked at this from all ends, from all these different situations.

(06:26):

I mean, there's so many different celebrities and artists that we've covered in our subtext episodes, which are the ones that Rich was talking about more so the shorter 15 or so minutes – non-guest – that we do on the first Wednesday of every month. We have a whole run of celebrity episodes there, and by looking at all those cases and just kind of giving that summary, we have to ingest everything that we could possibly read about it and then regurgitate everything in a 15 to 20-minute span. And you really, I don't want to say that we are getting into the mentality of some of these people, but you're starting to see the similarities. You're starting to see maybe the angles looking at their background and where they came from and what their family structure was like, or what relationships they had and how they're imparting that trauma on other people.

Karen (07:15):

And I think that, Shawn, we've talked about, we want the momentum to keep going for #MeToo. It's not something that happened in the past. It needs to keep going, and we need to keep the conversation going. That's one of our purposes. And how do you keep that conversation going? How do you learn the right vocabulary to use? And for us, we've talked about, it's really listening to survivors. That's how you're able to get people, and I really do love the dynamic between both of you as well, because Rich, you'll say things from a male's perspective that we don't always necessarily see or hear, and you'll be self-deprecating about it or make a joke or whatever. But it's very personal.

Kendra (07:57):

Hey, I usually make the jokes. But yes, there is definitely a duality to it, and that was one of the reasons why when I first started this, I thought about it for a really long time. Rich and I have known each other for a long time, and we were friends having conversations at two in the morning being like, did you hear about this person? After everyone else went to sleep in the house or everyone left the bar, we would end up at the end of the night having these really deep conversations. Why does this keep happening? Why is this happening? This really shouldn't be happening. Have you seen these things happening? I've experienced these things happening. And so I realized early on that he was someone that was very, I don't know if well-versed is exactly the word, but he was willing to listen, and he was an ally of the cause.

(08:49):

And so when I decided that I wanted to do something about this, I couldn't really get it off the ground properly, and I really needed someone else to help me. And he was obviously the only choice in my mind. I was like, “there wouldn't be anyone else.” And I joke a lot about him being like, he's a straight white male, so you had to add him in because otherwise no one would care. But it really does, like you said, Karen, give a different alternate perspective. A lot of our guests are female or femme, and having a male, white, straight ally who's giving his point of view – as I'm kind of mansplaining for you right now, Rich – I just think it makes everything a little bit richer. No pun intended.

Shawn (09:34):

Rich. I hadn't considered the term “ally” until we were recording our podcast with Kari Krome, and I was expressing that I felt a little strange being the straight white guy on the podcast, and did I have a place there, and she told me that I was an ally and how important allies are. How long have you recognized that that's your role, and what does it mean to you?

Rich (10:03):

I think it goes back even before we were doing the podcast, and it wasn't like, it wasn't something that I necessarily like a label that I put on myself. It was something that other people had put onto me as someone who people could trust to come to with their stories or that they knew would speak out about this stuff when maybe no other straight white guys are talking about these things. Like, I'll talk about 'em like I'm not scared. Maybe a little bit …

Karen (10:47):

Kendra said it perfectly. I mean, that's not a bad thing either, but Kendra said it perfectly. The first thing you said about Rich was that he listens, and if we really want to change, this is so pervasive in society, we need all of society to do something to think about, to be aware and to listen if we're going to move forward. It can't just be half the population or people who identify and resonate. There are plenty of people out there who want to figure out ways that they can take action, and that's what Shawn and I talked about is the very first step you can take to take action is to listen, to listen to survivors and figure out and learn how to talk about this so that it's on the table. We are discussing it. We are bringing out awareness, awareness of it, and we need those allies if there's going to be any change at all.

Kendra (11:43):

Listening is a huge part of the educational process. Even if you're not going, I mean, we've made book recommendations. We ourselves are consistently reading and watching, documentary searching and article sending. As Rich talked about in our group chat. It's like the most 180 group chat that will be check out these really funny memes, and all of a sudden it's like, “Hey, did you see who got caught recently?” It's just real from one to the other. It's just all day long. But it's the easiest thing to do to educate yourself, if you're not willing or able to go out there and spend copious amounts of time scouring the internet for “how do you help?” What do you do is just to sit down and listen to other people and just absorb what they're saying. Try not to be reactive, especially because so much of this will instill a reaction in you.

(12:34):

It's made to, it's triggering, it's traumatic. It's coming from someone who is telling their story, may say things that are harmful, verbally harmful to you, because you're taking this as if this was done. They're accusing you in a way or that you've become the target of something because they're explaining this in such an emotionally passionate, it's an emotionally passionate trauma dump a lot of the time. But sitting there and listening is not only educational for you, but it also is helping them heal in a way. Because the more that they're able to talk, the more they're able to express themselves, the more they're able to feel, like with the #MeToo movement, comfortable to come forward, and the more people they see coming forward, they're going to come forward as well, or at least start to feel more comfortable in the fact that they're not standing there alone because they're not alone. So many people have had these experiences.

Shawn (13:25):

Have you been the subject of emotional trauma dump before Karen?

Karen (13:31):

Today?

Shawn (13:34):

At all? What time is it?

Kendra (13:37):

Well, I mean, you have some time today. Yeah, we can take this offline. I got some things we can talk about if you want it. Yes, yes.

Shawn (13:48):

Well, I mean, I think even that, if listeners get to hear that, then they might recognize it when someone they care about gives them an emotional trauma dump and know that that's not personal against them. It's something that they're familiar with. And so much of this is taking away the taboo and the mystery around if no one ever talks about it, then nobody knows what's common when people try to talk about it. Rich, I see you shaking your head.

Rich (14:17):

Well, I was just going to throw in there, one of the things that I learned early on is with, just as Kendra pointed out, the listening and not reacting, I can remember a couple of instances when I was younger where a female friend of mine would come to me with a story of like, “Oh, this person that we both know and are friends with did this thing.” And my initial reaction would be like, “Are you sure?” And immediately what that says is like, “Oh, I don't believe you,” because that's just my knee-jerk reaction. That was my knee-jerk reaction at the time was just like, no, that couldn't have happened. You just misread the situation or something. You misread your assault. So it's just listening and taking it in. Instead of having an immediate response to something, which sometimes all someone needs is for you to just listen to them. It's not giving advice or asking specifics about something. It's just, Hey, I just need to unload this and get this off my chest. Can you just sit and listen to me for a little bit?

Susan Kryhoski suffered repeated sexual assaults from a trusted pediatrician when she was just 11 years old. Decades later, Susan is pursuing justice and has filed a legal claim against the hospital that employed the now-deceased doctor. As part of her healing journey, Susan has become an advocate, helping other survivors find their voices so they can begin to address the trauma they endured. “What I have learned,” Susan says, “is the only way you can truly heal is to talk about the trauma.”

Attorney Karen Barth Menzies says, “If survivors can gain the courage to say it out loud, even to themselves, and then to another person, that is what generates a discussion in the community and starts to reveal other survivors that are out there. Then you have a community of survivors supporting each other in a way that no one else can.”

When Susan began the process of filing her lawsuit, she discovered another woman had filed claims against the same doctor. Since speaking out publicly, other survivors of her predator have reached out to share their experiences and lend their support. Susan describes the feeling of learning there are other survivors as “bittersweet.” Susan says, “It is such a multi-faceted grief. It is grief for her. It is grief for me. It is anger. And it is validation.”

In this podcast, survivors are referred to frequently as “women,” especially because all the known survivors of this particular predator are women. Each participant in this conversation understands and respects that sexual assault survivors are men, women, non-binary, and trans. The themes in this podcast are relevant to all survivors, regardless of the pronouns used in this conversation.

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Here is a transcript of the Unsilenced Survivors conversation with Susan Kryhoski:

Shawn (01:27):

Karen, we're talking to Susan and you've just got some interesting news that you told her. Would you recap what Susan's just discovered?

Karen (01:38):

Yes. We just had two more survivors of her predator – this doctor – come forward, really to support Susan. They were young girls and he was their pediatrician, and he assaulted them, and they stumbled on information about Susan and her case coming forward and kind of opened, not surprisingly, some old wounds and even a path to understanding what actually happened to them. And they felt compelled to reach out to me to offer any kind of support that they could give to Susan in her journey and her healing process, and to thank her for coming forward, having the courage to come forward publicly and seek accountability.

Shawn (02:31):

I have a question for you, Karen. Did they know that there were other survivors before they reached out?

Karen (02:38):

No. Other than Susan, they were shocked to hear about Susan, and that was a big part of our conversation as well. When I told them that we've now got at least five or six others that we've spoken to since Susan's case was filed, and we were on video and watching the reaction in her face to hear that there are others as well, is that, and we talked about it, that bittersweet, “Oh my God, I'm not alone.” And there's some amazing comfort in that, but also sadness that it happened to others as well.

Shawn (03:15):

So, Susan, my question for you is twofold. One, how does that make you feel knowing that your courage to stand up for yourself and to speak out publicly has allowed other people to know that they're not alone, and then two, to encourage them to reach out and lend their support to what you're doing?

Susan (03:49):

Oh my gosh. I mean, honestly, my first reaction, anytime that I hear that there's been a victim, honestly, of any sexual violence is heartbreak. And then on top of that, that it was the same predator, Dr. Silverman. It compounds it even more because, gosh, it's really, it's hitting me because hearing it all for the first time. So I'm kind of processing through it out loud. So while I can't change what he did to myself or these women, I am so grateful that I'm being given the opportunity and the platform through the legal system, through Karen, through you, to try to give these women some sort of peace and justice and closure because there is healing in a collective community of women.

(05:17):

When you are processing through trauma and childhood trauma and sexual assault, there is a, there's, I don't say an evolutionary part of your brain that tries to tell you just so you survive, that it didn't happen, or maybe it wasn't that bad, or maybe you're overreacting or just bury it. Don't tell anyone. All these things go through, and that is, I've said before, that is what ultimately ends up being the demise of your mental health and your physical health. So the fact that I can serve as a, I don't want to say a voice and a public face of what has occurred to all of us, oh my gosh, it honestly makes every uncomfortable conversation, every anxious thought, every decision that I've had to deliberate on, all worth it. This is not just about me, it's not. It's about all of us. For all of us, there is a reckoning.

(06:52):

I do believe that. I do believe that all of the brave women that have come before me that are working now to seek justice and to change legislation and to raise awareness, I do believe that we can make a change. I do, and I am. My goal is to pave the way for the future and for any woman who's been victimized, that when they are trying to come to terms with what has happened to them, they don't have to seek out news articles and hope something pops up that there'll be a better way. But I'm happy to be laying down the brickwork for this particular particular …

Shawn (07:55):

Predator. Yeah,

Susan (07:56):

Yeah. This monster right now, myself, these women, this hospital, the insidious nature of the coverup of the grooming, the orchestrated abuse, all of it. All of it, I mean, all of it.

Shawn (08:23):

And Karen, I have a question for you as an advocate and as a lawyer who represents women in these cases, what is the value when you have someone come forward who wants to lend their support to a case, even if they're not interested in being a part of the lawsuit? They’re witnesses in a lot of ways, and their experience lends more credibility to Susan's experience and to the claims.

Karen (08:57):

Yeah, it's enormous When other survivors come forward to support from the legal front, it should never take more than one. We should believe survivors from the beginning. But the reality is, in the context of cases, having a corroborating story from another person, unfortunately, who was also a survivor and victim of the predator, corroborates the story. It helps establish a pattern of conduct by the predator. These types of predators never just assault one person. They get more bold over time, Susan's predator – over decades – assaulted kids and got more and more aggressive about it, which is where you see the institutions, there's no way they couldn't know about it. But on a more human level, the shared experiences, as unfortunate as they are, that survivors have the ability to be able to resonate with each other in a way that nobody else can understand means everything. It is a huge part of the healing process when survivors don't feel alone anymore with what they're dealing with.

Shawn (10:17):

Susan, one of the things I wanted to talk to you about today is you talked about how long you kept the secret of your abuse to yourself and how terrified you were to say it out loud to somebody, but then how important it was to initiating your healing process … t was to say that. So I'd love for anyone who's listening, who is still harboring the secret and thinking about telling other people about their abuse, tell us a little bit about what your experience was and what that meant to your healing process.

Susan (10:59):

Sure. In hindsight, I wish I would've taken the leap many years ago, excuse me, to saying the words out loud, but I didn't because it is, it's scary, and I thought it would kill me. I thought if I said the words out loud of what happened to me, I would die. I would combust, I would collapse. The world as I knew would cease to exist. And that is a very, very common thread that survivors share. But what I have learned, and from where I'm at now, is that the only way to truly heal is to talk about the trauma, because when you're assaulted, it does become a very, I call it, it becomes a cancer, right? And it starts poisoning all aspects of your life, depending on when it occurred. If it was in childhood such as mine, it affects everything, all stages of development, emotional, physical, medical. And it's like, I like to give the allegory of a tree. So if you have a poison at the root and it just keeps traveling through, it's not just going to be isolated to one area. So it's the branches, it's the leaves, it's everything. So as victims are going through their lives and they start experiencing medical issues or addiction or self-harm or suicidality, all of these things are outward manifestations of trauma and keeping the trauma inside because it will kill you.

Shawn (13:26):

And you can't start to get rid of that poison until you open up.

Susan (13:30):

No, no, because when you talk about it, when you say out loud, even if no one is in the room, even if you are sitting in a room and you are alone, and you just say it out loud, you are acknowledging what happened to you. You are taking the power away from the person who did it to you, because the person that did it to you, their goal was for you not to tell people. Their goal was to get away with it, because most likely they have been doing it to other people, and they want to continue to do it to other people. And the way that our world has worked and our society has worked, especially for women, we are not believed, and a lot of behaviors have been enabled over the years. So all of these hurdles have left us in a place where we don't say anything.

(14:30):

So when you get to that point and you say it out loud, that horrible thing that was living inside of you in the darkness, growing and churning and poisoning, just that little bit of light that you are shedding on it, it shrinks it down. It's like, okay, that's not that bad. It's like when you imagine something in your mind that's in the darkness, every kid is afraid of the dark. We don't know what's out there. We don't know what's out there. And then the lights go on, and it's not that bad. So when you say it out loud, when you talk to yourself, you can talk to yourself. You can find one friend, you can find one family member, you can find one therapist, you can write it down. But just taking away, get it out. And every time from that point on, it gets a smidgen bit easier, not what happened to you. That's never going to get easier, but the healing can begin because you get to a point where you stop blaming yourself or being ashamed or worrying about upsetting the people in your life, or how are they going to feel? How are they going to take it? How are people going to view you? And you start getting angry, and you know what? You should be angry. Someone ruined your life. Someone took something from you, someone violated you. That's never, ever, ever. Okay. So be angry, talk about it and find a collective group.

Shawn (16:22):

And once you let those emotions flow, then you let the poison flow out.

Susan (16:26):

Because you stop taking it out on yourself once it's out there and those words are out there and you start empowering yourself and stop blaming yourself and stop trying to punish yourself because of what somebody else did to you. Or you stop feeling gross. I mean, honestly, I have said it before, but it's another byproduct is who you thought you were or who you felt that you were, or an innocence that you had, or an autonomy that you had that's gone, and you feel gross. That is a very rudimentary term. I know, but I know that word resonates with a lot of people. So once it all starts coming out verbally, and you start talking and you start getting angry, and you start feeling like, okay, no Uhuh, this is not okay. And the goal is from that point and to find whatever means of recovery that suits for you. Everybody has a different means, but we're kind of getting to a point where we do have trauma-informed therapists. There is EMDR for memory recall. This is kind of coming into our vernacular and our society and the mental health world where we're not trying not to just treat the symptoms. We're trying to get to the root cause of why people such as myself are going through all of these devastating crises.

Shawn (18:24):

Yeah. Karen, I want ask, as an advocate, and as a lawyer, you have had a lot of conversations with women telling you about their experience. I suspect that some of those conversations, you're maybe one of the first, or not the first person that they've spoken out loud to about what's happened to them. Based on what Susan said there, I was curious what your experience has been

Karen (18:53):

Listening to Susan and talking to survivors. I think the clearest path that survivors take is incremental. It's hard to say everything at once, but if you chip away and start saying it out loud piece by piece, then as Susan said, the light starts to shine in and perspective starts to come into play. But I think with survivors, they keep it to themselves for so long and because they don't want to be defined by the assault. And so it's important for survivors when they have a chance to talk to somebody about it and they're ready to, it's somebody that they can trust. It's somebody that will give them the time that they need to start to approach what happened. Sometimes it needs to be in a very slow, gentle way to be able to get there, because it is so difficult. And that's the nature of trauma. It takes you right back to the time of the assault, but beginning to chip away and start to talk about it is the first step towards putting it into the past, into the proper perspective and have it stop taking over your life.

Shawn (20:06):

Susan, I have to ask, when was the first time that you learned that you weren't the only person to be assaulted by that doctor?

Susan (20:18):

The first time that I learned was when Karen and I were … Karen and … I had reached out to Karen, and Karen fought for my case to be filed. And then we found out that there was another woman who had filed a case or was filing a case. Right, Karen? I dunno if it was right before, no, it was actually a year before mine. So that was the first time that I found out. And I mean, honestly, it knocked the wind out of me. I cried, and it was such a multi-multifaceted grief. It was grief for her. It was grief for me, it was anger, and it was a validation that I … God … this person, this institution, they are as bad as I've known my entire life, my experience and my, what happened to me. All I have is my word. Like Karen said, that's unfortunately not really good enough in a court of law. Now, there needs to be a lot of people, or at least more than one.

Shawn (22:09):

Well, it certainly helps when there are more voices, especially when the evidence, Karen, is so difficult to produce, especially with cases that are as old as Susan's. One thing that I'm thinking of here, Karen, you and I have talked to survivors … who their predator is not in the news necessarily, or might not be in a position of authority. And when the survivor speaks out, it's not through a lawsuit or in any way that's public, but even within circles of people who know each other, we've seen survivors tell a friend, and then that friend says, “Oh, I had that experience with him.” Or “I know somebody who told me they had an experience with them.” And then that same, it's not public, but that same sort of realization, all those emotions that Susan was describing come out on the same level. And I think, Susan, tell me your thoughts on this, but I feel like if there's a survivor who hasn't spoken out loud about this or told anyone about her experience, there's sort of an obligation that she has to herself to begin the healing process by doing that. But also, I think your experience taught you that these predators almost always never do it one time. There's a pattern of behavior, and is there some responsibility if you're willing to take it, or at least some comfort in knowing that if you speak out even to your personal circle, that there's a chance you might be helping somebody else start that process too?

Susan (23:55):

Oh, 100%. I mean, yeah, the position of the predator or the institution or the group or the circumstances is not always going to look the same. And we do know that for someone to commit these heinous acts, there is a pretty, I don't want to say standard, but there's a course of action that is very familiar. So there's grooming involved, there's inserting themselves in, it may not be a position of traditional power, but in a position of power over somebody else. And that could be anything. And especially when you're dealing with children, especially when you're dealing with women in general, I'm

Shawn (25:04):

Sure in any power disparity,

Susan (25:05):

Any power, it doesn't matter. Even if it's a family member, we're always telling our children to respect adults, believe adults, hug your family members. And that's not necessarily something either. That is a good way to go about things. I think a blanket, a blanket educational piece that I believe that we do need to bring to children is that they have autonomy over their bodies. Even. It doesn't matter how old they are, they don't have to have physical contact with anybody that they don't want to. And just because somebody is an adult, it does not mean that they inherently know more than you, that they have trust and no secrets. If somebody tells you to keep a secret, and it's not somebody that, not your mom saying, don't tell your brother when I got him for his birthday, but something that

Shawn (26:16):

Secrets that you feel are wrong, and you have to honor that feeling inside of you.

Susan (26:21):

Yeah. Yeah. We all have that. Even children, they're just little people. They're not, I think people don't give kids enough. I mean, kids are kids, but they have voices too.

Shawn (26:39):

And Karen, as we wrap up here, I'm curious. So you've been in a position multiple times to learn – because often people will reach out through the lawyer – learn that there are other survivors, and get to tell the survivor you're working with that there are other people who are out there. And not only that, but willing to lend their voice. What does that mean to you, and how do you feel when that happens?

Karen (27:05):

I think one of the, how do I want to say it? Every survivor I've spoken to has at their core, the pain at their core is that sense of isolation. A sense of people aren't going to believe me. Self-blame, shame. What did I do to cause this? That's just inherent in sexual assault and victimization because of the power differential. And that's what predators thrive on. And so when survivors come forward to support each other and say, “Hey, you're not alone. It didn't just happen to you. It happened to me too,” they can begin to come to realize that as we've said, that's the start of the healing process to realize you're not alone. And if survivors can begin to gain that courage to say it out loud, even to themselves, as Susan said, and then to another person, and that is what generates a discussion in the community and starts to reveal other survivors that are out there. And then now you have a community of survivors supporting each other in a way that no one else can. And it means everything to the healing process of a sexual assault trauma survivor.

Shawn (28:25):

And it's probably the thing that the predator would fear most in the entire world.

Karen (28:31):

Yes, predators. They rely on the fear and the shame that survivors feel naturally, and that they're not going to get over that. And like I said, the survivors, they don't want to be defined by the assault that occurred to them. They're afraid that they're now, it's going to change their life in a way that they're going to always be labeled. And what did they do wrong? Because sexual assault, it's the only crime that when you report it, you're attacked, you're questioned, and we're well aware of that in society. And so predators rely on that. And they go for years and decades getting away with assaulting others because people are so afraid to come forward. And it's understandable why they are. But once survivors come forward and they start to learn about other survivors that this happened to, the courage and the strength and the healing power of that is hard to compare to anything.

Susan (29:32):

And to add on that, Karen, because you absolutely motivated me to kind of remember what I've been telling myself since we started this journey together, there is nothing that will feel worse emotionally than that, excuse me, than the assault that you endured. Meaning that every feeling that is going to inevitably rise up from the idea of talking about your assault, talking to other people, seeking help, starting to heal, starting to seek justice, whatever that looks like, whatever that shift, whatever that pivot looks like, nothing is going to be as bad as what happened to you. Sitting with emotions is something I personally and a lot of survivors don't do well with. We numb, I numbed. It's a very typical and understandable reaction. Pain comes up, sadness comes up, anger comes up. We numb, numb, numb with whatever device or coping mechanism, dangerous and deadly that we find. So honestly, some of the hardest things that I've had to deal with through my recovery after saying it out loud is sitting with feelings. And that sounds so silly, but it's like I never learned to do that. I never learned to feel sad or be sad and sit with it and then say to myself, okay, this is sadness. It sucks and it's going to go away. This is anger. I kind of want to fuck up some shit right now. I'm going to sit with it and it's going to go away.

(31:55):

It's uncomfortable and you learn every day who you are and what you need. And it is something that I never thought would be possible for me. I didn't think that life was going to be something that I was going to be able to do or have. So I wish there was a voice or somebody telling me when I was 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, that I just needed to, and you know what? If someone said that to me at that age, I probably would've ignored them or laughed or whatever. But I will say that when I did start talking, or at least talking to a therapist or saying it out loud, it was because I did hear through books or therapy or a public figure that had gone through it, and I respected them. Those things that they were saying, that resonated with me. Although I was not ready to accept it or do it for myself at the time, it kind of burrowed its way in. And I was like, oh, okay. Yeah, I guess that makes sense. Okay. And it took a seed, right? So that's why I do have hope that if someone is hearing this, and they may not be ready to accept it or to take that leap, but I just hope that it starts a garden where there was a poison tree. That is my goal.

Karen (33:57):

And you hear it, Shawn. That's what survivors, they want to seek accountability, and that's why they speak out publicly. They speak out to support each other. It is the heartbeat of the Me Too movement. They want accountability, not only from the predator, but from society. Recognition of all the hurdles that a survivor faces and coming out publicly to support each other in doing that. And really asking for accountability in a way that society itself understands and appreciates, believes the survivors, and recognizes that they were harmed. And that's why survivors join together and support each other.

Last year, Unsilenced Survivors founder Karen Barth Menzies was a guest on the "enough!" podcast which focuses on "surviving abuse, harassment, and assault in the music scene." It's a perfect fit for Karen who, as an attorney, represents sexual assault survivors in several high-profile music industry cases. You'll learn that Karen identified with the 80s punk rock scene because of "politics, social justice, feminism, individuality, and non-conformity." Since then she translated those values into her practice of law. "enough!" host Rich Gill says, "Fighting for people while being part of the system -- there's nothing more punk rock than that."

In many ways, Karen's appearance on "enough!" was a prelude to launching Unsilenced Survivors. The success of "enough!" confirms the importance and need for more safe places for survivors, advocates, and allies to talk about sexual assault.

Extra credit to anyone who can guess what color Karen would dye her hair if she didn't need to appear in court. Kendra Sheetz and Rich Gill, hosts of "enough!" will soon be guests on the Unsilenced Survivors podcast. 

Listen to the podcast:

Attorney Karen Barth Menzies welcomes listeners to Unsilenced Survivors. She explains that Unsilenced Survivors is a safe place for sexual assault survivors, advocates, and allies to tell their stories, talk about the work they are doing, and just as importantly, listen to the voices of others. Unsilenced Survivors is part of a grass-roots survivor network meant to let survivors know they are not alone, connect survivors to resources, and draw attention to advocacy organizations. Part of our mission is to help define a vocabulary for talking about sexual assault so more people can feel comfortable taking part in a constructive conversation about a difficult topic. To maintain power and control, sexual predators count on survivors remaining silent. When survivors speak out, and when others listen – we take the power and control away from the predators and give it to the survivors.

When a sexual assault survivor begins her (or his/their) healing journey, she is often both comforted and horrified to discover how many other survivors there are. The comfort comes from knowing she is not alone. The horror stems from realizing how common sexual assault is. 

Attorney Karen Barth Menzies represents survivors of sexual assault and meets survivors at various stages of their healing journeys. Sometimes, Karen can help survivors pursue legal action against their predator – but often a lawsuit is not possible, or the survivor chooses not to pursue litigation. When that happens, Karen says there are other ways for survivors to stand up for themselves, make their voices heard, and fight for change. She calls this “advocacy beyond litigation.”

There are many advocates for sexual assault survivors. There are counselors such as Kristina Sarhadi who founded The Punk Rock Therapist to provide counseling for survivors. There are leaders such as Nomi Abadi who founded The Alliance for Women Film Composers, in part, to make the music industry safer for women. There are voices such as Kendra Sheetz and Rich Gill who record the influential “enough.” podcast to shed light on sexual assault in the music industry. Some advocates provide financial counseling for survivors facing economic hardship, while others help survivors battle addiction. 

Countless allies around the world are supporting survivors of sexual assault by recognizing that all voices in society play an important role to bring healing to survivors.  As Judith Herman put it so well:  “Most importantly, the psychological meaning is that the larger community vindicates the survivor, and this restores the survivor’s sense of trust and belonging in their communities.”

Together, these survivors, advocates, and allies constitute an informal grassroots “survivor’s network,” helping others learn that they are not alone, they have a voice, and they have support as they progress along their healing journeys.  And that the conversation needs to continue. Karen Barth Menzies founded Unsilenced Survivors to be part of that grassroots survivor’s network. It is a safe place where survivors can listen to the experiences of others, learn from professionals who work with survivors – and even lend their voice to the conversation if they choose.

As a lawyer, Karen primarily represents survivors of sexual assault in the music and entertainment industry – though not exclusively. Susan Kryhoski suffered serial abuse from a doctor at a prominent New York City hospital, and now she is an advocate for children survivors, working to educate parents about how to recognize predatory behavior.  All of the survivors, advocates, and allies who speak out on Unsilenced Survivors are have stories that may resonate with anyone who suffered a power imbalance, in any industry or institution, that led to sexual assault. 

Sexual predators everywhere exploit the fear and shame they foster to compel survivors to remain silent. Predators rely on this silence to retain their power. The journey from silence to empowerment is a profound transformation for survivors of sexual assault. Initiatives like Unsilenced Survivors, spearheaded by Karen Barth Menzies, play an instrumental role in this process. When a survivor uses her voice and becomes unsilenced, she reclaims her power.

As a young teenager in the late 1970s, Kari Krome co-founded the influential, all-female rock band The Runaways and wrote many of the group’s songs. Back then, Rodney Bingenhimer’s English Disco nightclub was one of the epicenters of the Los Angeles rock scene. The glam rock allure of the English Disco drew Kari in. There she met the namesake proprietor and his friend, music producer Kim Fowley. The two men, functioning as gatekeepers for young people interested in the music industry, grotesquely abused their positions of power. They took a sexual interest in then twelve-year-old Kari Krome.

“It took a really long time for me to even realize that was abusive because it was so pervasive within the culture and so normalized,” Kari says in today’s podcast. “The attitude was, ‘Oh my God, you get to hang around famous people. How dare you complain?’”

Kari’s attorney, Karen Barth Menzies, says the atmosphere created at the English Disco was deliberate. “It was one of the only clubs in Hollywood that would allow underage girls in there … and the rock stars knew it. It was blatantly serving up minors to rock stars.”

For Kari, the illusion of the English Disco was shattered when she suffered a series of sexual assaults at the hands of Bingenhimer and Fowley. She filed a lawsuit under The California Child Victims Act which disclosed details about the assaults which were also described in a Rolling Stone magazine article about Kari’s experience.

After the Rolling Stone article came out, other survivors of Rodney Binginhimer’s English Disco contacted Kari to show support and to share their experiences. “It was very powerful, and it was also a confirmation,” Kari says. “I’m sorry that it happened to them as well, but at the same time, it's good because if people don’t come forward, it’s going to keep going on.”

“Back then,” Kari says, “you would suffer in silence for years…. There was nowhere to go with it because the shame and the name-calling was so pervasive from Kim and Rodney Bingenhimer. As I aged, I realized that they had a whole system of how they were allowed to do this and then how they were allowed to keep you quiet.”

It has taken decades for Kari to deal with the trauma of the sexual assaults she suffered. She resents how her experiences and the ridicule from her abusers caused her to walk away from the opportunities she had earned in the music industry. “I was so humiliated,” she says. “I was so young. I was devastated … I was being hyped up by Kim and Rodney as being this child prodigy, and I was in CIRCUS (magazine) and Rolling Stone, and then … it was like a kind of wall just came down and I couldn’t move forward from it.”

  Karen says Fowley and Bingenheimer robbed the world of Kari’s potential influence in the music industry. “She was a voice for women that was nowhere to be found. It was her idea to have a powerful, strong female band. She was writing songs from the voice of a female and the assaults just crushed her spirit.”

Kari says the only way for more female voices to be heard is for more women to occupy gatekeeping and leadership positions. “It has always been my dream that women will have a place at the table and that will be a safe community where women can be mentored by other women – a revolution, so to speak – where women don’t have to go to a man to ask for something. There will be women directors, women producers … women all the way up and down the chain.”

Karen says that the way to realize a reality where women hold gatekeeping and leadership positions in significant numbers, is for women to stand up against their abusers. Additionally, advocates and allies must stand beside survivors who bravely speak out.